Listen to this episode here.
It’s the crossover event of the season! This week I’m joined by Jeff Stormer of the Party of One podcast to talk about the core mechanic of Desperation by Jason Morningstar. In this game full of dread about a small Kansas town struggling through a never-ending winter, instead of deciding what happens, each turn you draw a card and decide who the thing on the card happens to. It’s a super slick mechanic. Meanwhile over on Party of One, you can listen to Jeff and I actually play the game.
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Transcript
Sam: Hello, and welcome to another episode of dice Exploder. Each week, we take a tabletop RPG mechanic and ask it to dance. Just the two of us. My name is Sam Dunnewold and my cohost this week is Jeff Stormer.
Jeff is best known in the RPG world as the host of Party of One, an actual play podcast that features two player games, just Jeff and a guest. It's quality. It's intimate, it's secretly an interview show and a review show kind of wrapped together and an actual play. The work Jeff is doing is just so impressive. Party of One is also the longest running actual plate I'm aware of with 420 episodes nice and counting.
And this week that count increases with. Me. You are in fact right now listening to one half of a crossover event. A few months back, I had the privilege of recording with Jeff for party of one. And while we were in the middle of recording, I was like, Hey, you know, we should also record a dice Exploder about this cool game we're playing right now to release it at the same time. And he was like, oh yeah, obviously we're going to do that. And now here it is. And you're listening to the dice Exploder. And right now you can go over to party of one and listen to us actually play the game.
And the game is Desperation: Dead House bye Jason Morningstar and published by bully pulpit games. this game is set in a small Kansas town during the unending winter of 1888. Bad things happen to the people in this small town over the course of this truly horrible winter. It's really grim stuff, If you're worried about the content, we don't really get into a here directly
Anyway, the game is great. But what's really great is the games central mechanic. Every turn you draw a card and the card has on it. Some ominous or terrible event narrated in the first person. And you get to choose which of the town's residents. That card is being narrated by. You decide who must suffer this fate. It's a game where you don't choose what happens, you choose who it happens to, and this is really cool. I'll leave it there. Let us get into it in the actual episode, here is Jeff Stormer with speak your truth from Desperation dead house.
Jeff Stormer, thanks so much for being on Dice Exploder.
Jeff: I am so excited to be here, truly. I'm stoked. I'm thrilled. _I'm, I'm very_ excited.
Sam: Yeah, so normally I ask, like, why did you choose this mechanic to bring on? But we know the answer to that is that we played this game on your podcast, Party of One presumably coming out at the same time as this show. So, people should go over there and check that out and listen to us play the game, and then come back here and listen to us debrief on the game, I guess?
And talk about everything we liked and didn't like about it.
Jeff: Yeah, it was a great game. We're recording this weeks after recording the game itself, and I'm still sitting here thinking about it. It was a really very cool experience.
Sam: It creates such a vivid experience. Like, no one, no one, writes horrific deaths like Jason Morningstar for characters in games. So, for people who haven't necessarily gone over there and listened to it, do you want to give us a brief overview of what Desperation is and how this mechanic works?
Jeff:
So Desperation is two related games. It is Dead House and it is the Isabelle. That are themed around particular horrifying moments with small groups of people in fairly confined environments. I wrote in the document that we've got in front of us that it is a series of horrifying decisions stacked on top of each other and it's much more fun than it sounds.
Basically the premise and the sort of mechanics of it is, you, unlike a lot of sort of traditional approaches to roleplaying games, you are not deciding like, what characters do and what happens, you are deciding who events happen to, and by that I mean the game is a deck of cards with very specific mechanics. Prompts on them, and you have a pre established cast of characters in Hell House, which is the game that we played. You have a small town in Kansas during a particularly harsh winter. And each card sort of describes an event that happens over the course of this particularly hellish winter. You draw the card.
You read the prompt, you look at the cast of characters that you have in front of you, you decide who is experiencing the event on the card, and then in the most evocative piece of the mechanic, you speak your truth. And by that I mean you embody whichever character you are assigning the card to, and you describe the events of the card from their perspective and how they react to them.
Sam: Yeah, so I'm gonna just read one of the example cards from The game is divided into three seasons, Autumn, Winter, and Hell,
Jeff: Which is so good.
Sam: I know, I just, just Just pause and appreciate that Hell is one of the seasons.
Okay so. Here's one of the Autumn cards. I learned from a tattered scrap of newspaper that the Detroit Wolverines have won the National League pennant over the Indianapolis Hoosiers. This cheered me, and I clung to the news for some reason. I told everyone, but no one in Neola gives a damn. The score was 7 3. Speak your truth. And, another thing that I think isn't, wasn't 100 percent clear in your explanation is that like, The thing that you do is you draw this card, you read it silently to yourself, and then you decide who says it and read it out loud.
So there's this moment where everyone else at the table is looking at you, just reading the card, and your face slowly turning to, like, despair as you see what's about to happen to someone. And they have to just wait and find out what the thing is while you're making your choice.
You put that into the document as a particularly spicy part of this mechanic, and it really is
Jeff: It, that moment hit every single time in the game that we played. The moment where you're sitting and like our experience was a little bit different because we were playing via Roll20 and like, we could both see the cards that were getting flipped. So there's kind of a moment where of us both silently reading, but like that experience of like, I don't know what's about to happen.
I don't know who it's about to happen to. It hit every single time. And yeah, that experience of when you're the person reading of like, Slowly feeling the tragedy and sort of misery setting in of, Oh, I have to subject someone to this? It, it It is viscerally uncomfortable in the most enjoyable way possible.
And really case in point, I need to call out that the horrible thing in the example card that you shouted out was that the Detroit Wolverines have won the national league pennant. , my most hated sports team of all of the sports teams.
Sam: Yeah. I mean, I do love, even in the writing on that first card, how it's still autumn so no one's dying, right? but we're just sort of doing a lot of foreboding shit, but the card is so foreboding for someone one
at football. but it feels so bad already.
Jeff: it really does, and also like, there's a, a micro detail that actually, Dead house and The Isabelle draw from a lot of, like, real world history, and there's a thing in this card that might be a real historical fact, I'm not sure.
Sam: 100 percent sure it is. This is classic Morningstar bullshit. . Drawing these weird 99 percent invisible historical facts and like, letting you just spin out and do whatever the heck you want with them. It's so cool.
Jeff: there's something even foreboding about the fact that , in any kind of sports game, the score being seven to three is so sparse. Like that's such a low scoring game for basically any American sport that like, there's a real sense that even things are dire for the people playing games elsewhere in the world.
Sam: So, I think the elephant in the room with this mechanic is Just how restrictive this game is relative to the vast majority of RPGs. That truly you can play this game entirely by just drawing a card, reading the text verbatim, assigning it to a person, and then being done. That's not exactly how the game is intended to be played, you know, there's very much an expectation that you're going to extrapolate a little bit, but that functions, that works, you'll have a satisfying play experience. And that is so much less than we think of with traditional roleplaying games. And I love that about it. Like, I think that creates such a accessible experience. People who might not be comfortable really roleplaying can just do that and move on.
And like, even if they're in a group with a bunch of people who want to go fucking ham on speaking their truth. But it It also delivers such a consistent experience, and I love that about it too, that because it's so precise and knows exactly what it is and has been designed so focused to a point to doing that one thing, that know every time what you're gonna get out of a game, even as it is fun to play over and over.
Jeff: to me the experience almost, the closest sort of reference point was almost like Euro worker placement games, with this very, very sort of horrifying narrative laid on top of it, but that sense of, Randomness in a very kind of broad context, which is something that is very revelant in a lot of roleplaying games, is not especially present here beyond, like, the drawing of cards, but, like, it's much more focused on where am I placing results, where am I assigning things, what is the dynamic between characters that I'm establishing, like, that sort of card placement is such an interesting mechanical touch that really like, it, it just ripped.
It was, it was such a cool, like, way to experience the story was Like you were saying, it's very repeatable, but at the same time, like, each of those decisions kind of, like, lays on top of the ones before, and it pushes, you know, like, there were several instances where the story that we told I don't think could possibly be replicated simply because of the decisions that we made, while at the same time, like, the process, you could absolutely see how you got into that specific position.
Sam: Yeah something I really want to highlight in there that you said is about randomness. In most RPGs are using some kind of randomness to resolve individual moments in play of, you know, you're trying to climb over the wall and you roll dice to find out if you do it or not. But, here, the randomness isn't really operating on a moment to moment level.
It's operating on a playthrough to playthrough level, Like, you could play this game without randomness at all, and it'd be completely fine. You could stack the deck however you wanted, and that would be a consistent playthrough. And you'd even get some variety based on whatever the individual players and their choices were bringing to the table.
But To make the game more replayable, you introduce that element of randomness and that makes it more fun to bust out next time. I think that's so wonderful. I think randomness is in some ways overrated in the actual moment to moment,, playing of games. but I also love drawing from a deck of cards, that feeling of it could be anything, like I don't know what it's going to be next.
adds to the tension that this game is really going for.
Jeff: there's something about like drawing from cards where, unlike say a fully random moment to moment thing, like if I roll a dice, I interpret the number on that dice, I then decide how that translates to the fiction, like, it is infinite blank space is how I will describe it, right?
Like, you know, there's so many factors. I could, if I sat down. You could, in theory, count cards in this. ,, you could anticipate how likely it was that a card was going to come up on each play. And there's something about that. a perfect example is there was always the. skip to the next season card somewhere in the deck. You know, the way that you move between seasons is you draw a card that's like, , it's time to go to hell. And that dwindling deck of cards where you know that at a certain point, you're going to flip that card and things are going to get worse for you.
And you're just watching that deck dwindle one by one by one by one. adds this mounting dread that is just delicious.
Sam: It's so nice too that every time you draw a card you, you have both, oh god, what am I gonna have to deal with this time? But you also know that you are one step closer to all of this being over. Part of me is always like, Let's just like get through it Let's just keep going like we gotta just like keep putting one foot in front of the other like get through this Which is how I handle traumatic situations Anyway, like in real life and that I love that that emotion is in this too
Jeff: It rules. It just really is fantastic. It really is so much fun to kind of like flip through and the, the ominous sense of I have to draw the next card and I see how much of the deck is left I know that this might be it at every moment is just, it hits every time.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, the second time I played this I really feel like I'd done new production of an old play because you have the same little cast of characters every time, it felt like there was this alternate reality thing going on, of the story was so similar in so many ways, but also so different in so many, it was fun to see that continuity between playthroughs and to make connections between playthroughs.
Like, I was talking to Jason Morningstar after playing the first time, and he was like, Oh, yeah, Pearson's always a fucking weirdo. And love that, that Pearson can always be this weirdo, that Velma can always be this woman with her books in the cabin. It just feels like such a unique thing for RPGs to me.
Jeff: yeah, it almost does feel like staging a play, like you have the cast, you know these characters, and It makes it feel different than when you are playing something like like a Dungeons and Dragons or something where you have this is an entirely new world and characters and we kinda gotta like get our feet under it, so it's like I, the last time I played this game, I know who these six characters are, I'm gonna see how it shakes out differently and the little differences, but Pearson's always gonna be a fucking weirdo.
and so much of that comes from the cards, and like the way that they push you towards certain feelings and vibes that is just incredible.
It's just incredible.
Sam: Yeah, like, there's a character named Fate, who you get to decide which family in town Fate is staying with, and we decided that he was staying with Pearson, and that they were lovers, that was, that was, A decision that I hadn't even considered before. I played this like three times before and it just brought out this completely new side of both characters But also Pearson was still a fucking weirdo and Fate felt like Fate did in the other games, too I've also started to see how There are some ideas that happened in like early playthroughs for me that I keep trying to seed into my later playthroughs like I wrote this note in here like I almost always say that someone plays the violin or some other string instrument because I love the image of later burning it for firewood That's just so sad to me It's so wonderful that I'm trying to reproduce it and most of the time it doesn't happen because other people are making other choices And whatever but it's always There, because I'm putting it there, because I love it so much.
I love that I'm also bringing a continuity to my playthroughs of Desperation with people that that isn't going to be there in other groups because they won't have me.
Jeff: And, yeah, the way that, like, your playthroughs of the game are going to inform each other because like I was saying earlier about, like, counting cards, like, you know, You remember the particularly evocative prompts last time. You remember the moments from the last times that you played where you're like, Oh, this prompt destroyed us.
This prompt ruined us. This prompt was a turning point for the entire game. So that when somebody puts that card on the table and starts to speak their truth, you have this sense of, Oh, this might disrupt everything and then if it doesn't go that way, then there creates this almost cognitive dissonance of like, this felt like it was supposed to be a different energy, and
Sam: It almost creates a relief. Like, I dodged a bullet. Like, the tree didn't explode in town this time. Like, oh my god, thank god. Like, like, we didn't have to deal with all the traumatic aftermath of that. We had to deal with, oh no, what's this other trauma that's
Jeff: Yeah. And there's something really, really cool about that, especially in a game where so many of the prompts and themes and stories are tied around things being wrong, around like a growing sense of dread and unease, this sense of, I remember the worst things that happened.
You feel that unease almost even more prominently on a replay because you saw what happened last time.
Sam: Yeah. I compared it to a play earlier, but I've also compared it to a choose your own adventure book.
Sam: in how precise it is, right? You are making choices, but a ton of it is laid out for you. And, the feeling that we're talking about reminds me of the thing that I used to do Reading choose your own adventure books where I would like put my finger in a page to
come back to it and like make a Different choice and you can't do that exactly in this game especially when someone else draws a card and then say it's coming from someone Who I would not have chosen.
Like, I would have done a different thing with it. I'm always like, oh, but what about the game where I, Like, I want to put my finger in there and like, come back to that. And often I end up, after the game is over, talking about those other branching paths we could have gone down.
But it also, playing the game over from the start, feels like going back to one of those dog eared pages, in a
Jeff: Sure. Yeah. And like the two things that it really feels like for me that I think it's so cool that it evokes this one. It almost feels like, A time loop is the way that I would describe it. There's that sense of like, you know things are gonna happen at certain moments and you're like, hey, it's gonna happen this way.
And then when it doesn't, you are just thrown off of your element completely.
And the feeling that it evokes really, really wonderfully I can't say for certain that I have felt this in a different role playing game., but like, I've never, like, seen it baked so thoroughly into the rules of the game itself. It evokes the don't go in that door horror feeling. it's that moment of like, you see the card, you know what's go Like, you see the card, when you when you realize who is saying this and who is about to speak their truth, there's that real feeling of Don't go in that door.
Don't go in that you're gonna get oh, no, I I mean, I gotta put this card here, and then you feel it happen, like, that moment between when you read the card and you set it down, there's a real sense of like, don't do that, don't do it's gonna go bad, I know that it's not gonna do what you want it to do.
Sam: You know, I've seen the conversation happening before of like, can RPGs really do horror in the first place? The players are always in control of the story to a large extent and I think most horror RPGs are just sort of like low power adventure games but like dread really gives you that like feeling of tension of pulling from a Jenga tower and I love the mechanic in Bluebeard's Bride where when a player at the table shivers in fear something happens in the fiction of the story but even that is a result of Having built tension at your table rather than a mechanic that builds that tension in of itself I think you're totally right that Dread really is the only other one I can think of that build up so much tension and fear around what is going to happen next.
Jeff: it's the difference between, like, a jump scare, and like, in Dread, like, the fear is the shocking thing, is the viscerally shocking experiential thing of the tower falling going to happen and thus cause my character to be killed.
In this, It is a much more kind of humanist horror, I would describe it as, of like, I know that this character making this decision is going to go as badly as it can possibly go, and I can't stop it. I am simply, it's, it's a sort of squirm horror, it's a discomfort.
Sam: Yeah, and the other main difference is when you make a pull in Dread and succeed, there's a palpable moment of relief around the table. And Desperation never gives you that moment of relief. Like it just builds, it's just ratcheting it up.
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So , is there anything about this mechanic that you think isn't working or could work better or some kind of bump that you have for it?
Jeff: There are definitely times where, like, in playing the game And to a certain extent, I feel like this is true of any game where you are Drawing on events in a random order. Like you see this in in Descended from the Queen Games very similarly of like at times there is a sort of what I would describe as like retroactive character work happening.
There is this sense where, you know, you are almost. Having to kind of step back and say, okay, I see this, I see the options on the table this character is about to walk into someone's house with a shotgun. How do I justify the use of this retroactively? like, it feels like sometimes the events are, the ultimate kind of character decision, and sometimes it feels like they are plot events that are applying to a character.
Sam: Yeah, I agree with that. You sort of have to do some work to bridge some cognitive dissonance in
there at times, right? I mean, I like the surprise of like a plot twist. We, we had this moment in our playthrough of like we'd set up this old woman to, who was gonna be scheming and like she'd survived everything and she was definitely gonna survive this and then she died right away.
Jeff: almost immediately.
Sam: I think she was number two. But, On the one hand, that felt a little out of character. It felt like a plot thing was just happening. And on the other hand, I like that subversion of expectations at times, too. I love that that does bring some surprise to us as players that we weren't necessarily gonna have otherwise.
I think It's a trade off, you know, like it's definitely a drawback, but it's a drawback that is something that creates a lot of what's good in the game, too.
Jeff: Like that example is a perfect one, where we were like, we both kind of implicitly had this vibe of oh, I know what this character's gonna get up to, I, this, this character's gonna cause some trouble, nope, nope, nope, she's dead, okay, well, like, that was a very fun energy in that moment that really colored the rest of the game.
It almost told us immediately, like, do not think anyone that you think is going to be safe is going to be safe,
Sam: It's the Game of Thrones thing.
Jeff: It really is, and it was such a good moment. And there were other moments where, like, the moments where you don't feel that immediate pull towards a character where you're like, Oh, , this has got to be Pearson.
Pearson is doing this. There is a sense of like, okay, so how do I find my way to a place where I feel like a character is going to interact with this?
Sam: Yeah, and that gets harder sometimes as the game goes on, too, because on the one hand, everyone gets, like, more desperate as the game proceeds, and so you can sort of more justify anyone doing anything, but on the other hand, sometimes you'll have four characters left, and you'll draw a card where you can easily imagine, like, three of the dead people having done this thing, but there's only four people left and it doesn't match any of them as well, and it makes the problem a little bit worse.
There are two other like random things in this game that I wanted to touch on. So the first is the use of random historical ephemera and facts in this game that we kind of brought up earlier a little bit. I love the way that there's this classic problem with games that are set in real life history of people being afraid that they don't know enough about real history to actually role play in this setting.
And I love the way that like, Dead House is set in this real historical thing, but it doesn't feel Like quote unquote important like there's no Hitler to kill here, right? there's no like big thing that's gonna fundamentally fuck up history that you're gonna do and that gives people some more permission to really play around in here but also most of the historical facts that are actually on the cards like the score of the Detroit Wolverines versus the Indianapolis Hoosiers are real, but they're evocative while being so small Because they're written right onto the cards it eases people into that like it let it gives people permission I think to play around there and not be so afraid to muck around in history Yeah,
Jeff: that really feels like it gave me a lot of permission to, like, get like, dive in and get my, my hands dirty is the, the isolation of it, like, the, the common thread to Dead House and the Isabel is that they are both Remarkably isolated stories, like the blizzard that happens in Dead House, like, isolates the community and no one gets in or no one gets out, like, that is a very clearly established thing, and the Isabelle, like, is a similar story of, like, this is completely cut off from The world at large, and I think there is like a very compelling aspect of that, of this is a very small, isolated story that is gonna play out in a very specific way.
Sam: yeah, totally The other thing that I really love about this game using cards is, you know, we've discussed this is a very brutal game. There's a lot of content warnings in this game, and every single card in the deck is numbered, and all of the content warnings come with, if you want to remove this content from the game, you can find the following numbered cards in the decks and remove them.
And If you remove, like, more than X number of cards, maybe play a different game. And I, I think that that is a really, really nice way of baking a important safety tool into a game with so much dark content.
Jeff: 100 percent agreed, like if I were to look at a game that was written with less care,
I might find the phrase, if you remove more than X cards, play a different game, edgy, like it might feel like it was maybe trying a little hard you know, that was a sentence that seen in other games and gone like Okay, cool.
Yeah, okay, but like in this case the way that it's written feels like such a genuine act of care because it really does come after like, here are each individual line item content warnings. like it is, okay for you to look at this list and go, this is not for me.
Sam: Yeah, totally. I think it's worth reading verbatim the sentence from the book it says, If you find yourself removing enough of these to end up with fewer than eight cards per act, that's a sign that you should play a different game.
Jeff: thoughtful is the word I would use , it's coming at this very valid assessment of the game's content and themes not from a perspective of like get ready for something real! It's coming from a perspective of like, hey, look, at a certain point, like, this is what you can expect to deal with.
This might not be the experience that you want. Go ahead and like, you know, if like it and the fact that it's not saying like don't play this game if you remove x cards, it's like this might be a sign that you are not looking for what this game is going to offer.
Sam: So what would your Desperation playset be about?
Jeff: I've been thinking about this question. I've been thinking about this question a lot. And there's the Jeff Stormer answer. Like, there's the default answer when I think about, like, how would I make a thing using this game. Which is the world of professional wrestling.
However,
as I sat with it, thing about wrestling is that it is an industry and an art form so marked by unspeakable tragedy , the more I sat with it, the more I feel like
I think anything that I would write would either feel too real to the point of feeling exploitative or removed enough that somebody that like felt the pull to play the wrestling desperation game would look at it and go, well, this isn't as bad as it could be. Cause I know wrestling history.
And like, I feel like either of those would do a disservice to desperation as a concept.
That said the other Jeph Stormer answer feels spectacular, which is superheroes. Like, a desperation game about, , the adventures of a team of superheroes, very much kind of in the Watchmen tradition of like, here's the superhero team and you just watch their ranks whittle one by one as their lives just implode around them.
Feels like it has a real, feels like there's some, there's some thread that you can pull on there that like is gonna, is gonna give some real juice. Mm
Sam: I know Jason's been he's also working on one inspired by Helm's Deep and trying to hold out against a fantasy attack, which also feels perfect for
this.
Jeff: That feels really perfect.
Sam: Yeah, I played this for the first time and was like that's just Hollywood, baby, like, I'm out here in Los Angeles and this is my friends dropping out of trying to be screenwriters one by one and moving back home.
And I, I feel like I would need to get 20 years deeper into the industry before I could really write that game properly and do it justice. But I also imagine you could write that game entirely with real things that had happened to people being abused in various ways. So I don't think I'll ever make that game, but it is what this game made me think of.
Jeff: Sure.
Sam: I think there's another one from Jen Martin that is like Regency era women trying to find husbands,
and my favorite part about that one is that it makes this mechanical framework not depressing. It makes it more comedic. The stakes aren't life and death. Like, horrible things can still happen to you, but it's gonna feel like a Jane Austen novel, I think, a lot more than it's gonna feel like a meat grinder.
And I love, as specific as this framework is, seeing that flexibility in it. That it can do more than one thing. It makes me want to do the like, party down version of the Hollywood one, right? That it
Jeff: really
Sam: to be horrible and full of abuse, it can be a sitcom. Like,
Jeff: Sure.
Sam: Anything else you want to say about Desperation?
Jeff: guess my closing note is that this game fucking rips.
Sam: It's just fucking great. It's quick. It's easy. Like, I really think you could just bust it out at a dinner party if your guests are sufficiently goth. Like, I do love this game. I think people should buy it. I think it kind of got short shrift when it was initially funding because it was right when everyone had left Kickstarter, but no alternatives had really cropped up yet.
So this got funded on like GameFound, I want to say. And. I really think it deserves more than it got. So,
Jeff: I think so. This is, this game is something special.
Sam: pick this game up, guys. Yeah, it's, it's great. Thanks for being here, Jeff.
ha ha
ha
ha
Jeff: was the highlight of my week.
Sam: Thanks again to Jeff for podcasting with me, you can find party of one wherever you get your podcasts. And you'll find Jeff on socials at Jeff Stormer. As always, you can find me on socials at S Dunnewold or on the dice exploded discord.
This episode was edited by Chris Greenbriar. Our logo was designed by sporgory. Our theme song is sunset bridge by purely gray and our ad music is Lily pads by my boy, Travis Tesmer. And thanks to you for listening. Say it next time. we're doing it. Whew. Time.