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Shadows are a metatechnique in larp where you have players in the role of something other than a traditional larp or rpg player character. Maybe they’re stagehands turning out the lights because there’s ghosts in this house. Maybe they’re the characters’ worst fears who wander around and whisper into players’ ears to egg them on into terrible actions and choices. They’re special effects, or ghosts, or whatever else you want them to be. Let's talk about them!
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Transcript
Sam: hello and welcome to another episode of Dice Exploder. Each week we take one mechanic and patiently watch it work its magic. My name is Sam Dunnewold and my co host today is Elin Dalstal. First up, Dice Exploder is newly on Patreon! I launched last week and right now behind the paywall you can get a 20 minute audio essay about Yazeba's Bed and Breakfast that friend of the show Kurt Refling called "BANGER, he said, crying." And also a short autobiographical game I made about living through the Los Angeles fires back in January, with more to come.
But today, we're back with LARPs. So far in this LARP miniseries, I've largely been talking with folks from the American LARP world, who happen to know smart stuff about LARPs too. But I think a LARP season would be incomplete without talking to someone whose bread and butter is weekend long Nordic larps. Someone who actually came up in that community.
And for me, that meant Elin, the resident Nordic LARPer in the Dice Exploder Discord. Who's always bringing us that Nordic perspective. And when I invited her on the show, she wanted to talk about Shadows, a meta technique in LARP where you have players in the role of something other than a traditional LARP or RPG player character. Maybe they're stagehands turning out the lights because there's ghosts in this house. Maybe they're the characters worst fears who wander around and whisper into players ears to egg them on into terrible actions and choices. They're special effects or ghosts or whatever else you want them to be.
And you know, let's just get into it today. Here is Elin Dalstal with Shadows.
Elin, thanks so much for being here on Dice Exploder.
Elin: Thank you, it's nice to be here.
Sam: Yeah. Normally I say what are we here to talk about? But before we get into the specific thing that we're even here to talk about today, I wanted to talk about like, what the heck is LARP and what's Nordic LARP specifically?
Elin: Yeah, that's pretty much the same question as what's in the RPG. You know it when you see it, when you're in the scene. But the easiest way to answer this is that it's a design tradition of how you make LARPs and how you play LARPs in the Nordic countries. Because LARPs, unlike tabletop, develop more regionally.
Like, you played with people who was a driving distance away, so, within a country, within a region, there's often a design tradition associated with that region.
I think one of the defining features of Nordic larp is that a bit more than 25 years ago, they started to run a Nordic larp convention for all the Nordic countries. And it was a quite discussion and theory heavy convention. And at each convention, a book was published with texts about what's, what's going on, on Lark, on theories and techniques, and that's been published pretty much every year the last 25 years
Sam: Yeah,
Elin: built this community of learning and discussion and debate and discourse that made it a style that's, it's very designing, like
Sam: yeah,
Elin: very, very geeky, very designing, very theoretical.
Sam: yeah. And I feel like we have a lot of those same conversations in the indie tabletop world, but much less formal. They're like people yelling at each other on Twitter and Discord and on forums and all these other places that have received much less archiving.
So we're talking today about a particular LARP campaign. Maybe let's start with that. what game are we talking about here? What campaign are we talking about today and what is its deal?
Elin: we will be talking about, The horror larp campaign, På Gott och Ont, or in English, Of Good and Evil. And we can just say of good and evil because that saves everyone a lot of confusion. It's a contemporary, very Nordic larp campaign about a group facing different supernatural threats. It's nothing unique about the settings. All our inner teenagers love that shit.
Sam: totally.
Elin: what makes it special is not the story, but on the design level that it's a transmedia game, because we play as a larp, we play more tabletop like blackbox scenarios, we play by text, we have weird stuff that might show up in the mail,
Sam: Yeah. Cool.
Elin: and they make audio clips, sound clips, and use very many different media to give an experience. And it goes on for two months of each year, with three big weekend events, a yearly, weekly missions you go on when you have an evening of LARPing, countless emails and play by chat and everything, very intensive for two months, even within the Nordic LARP sphere, it's sort of an extreme sport.
Sam: Yeah. Because from my research, like an American LARP campaign is like, you meet up once a month. And you all pretend to be vampires, or you all pretend to be fantasy people hanging out in the woods, and that's kind of your thing. Maybe there's some mechanics, and maybe there's not, I, at some point I'll have someone from a vampire LARP I'm here to talk about.
And that like, in a Nordic LARP campaign, maybe that's a similar kind of thing, but also maybe you're only meeting up, like, once a year for a big event or a few times a year for a big event. And it does seem like this is much bigger. Is that sort of like, for a typical Nordic LARP like kind of campaign, how often would you be expecting to run something?
Elin: Well, it ranges from, there are vampire, Larps that runs once a week to big production things like we don't have the energy to set up this massive 500 people production every year so they do it every other year
Sam: Sure.
Elin: and campaigns is not the norm like they're not strange but perhaps 30 percent of the or less of the nordic larps are contained larps
Sam: cool. And when you're playing a campaign LARP, is it sort of like every event is sort of designed unto itself, or, or like tabletop are you coming back to the sort of same set of mechanics every time? Or is it, is this the kind of thing where like, the mechanics are so secondary that like, the question is, kind of, who cares?
Elin: Often the answer is the mechanics are so secondary that who cares. Often the mechanics is just barebones safety stuff. If someone breaks a leg, this is what you should say to stop the game. But generally I think there are things that always is the same. This is a viking village. Each year we do a feast larp in this viking village. And we've been doing it for 20 years, so people's kids are really grown up, and so on. And
Sam: Yeah.
Elin: they might have the same rules every year because they do a slice of life.
Sam: Yeah.
Elin: something that varies, you might have very differently designed events for each larp depending on what you want to do with each event.
Sam: Totally. So. Of Good and Evil, we're playing this extreme sport LARP of two months multimedia once a year. What mechanics specifically in this are we going to talk about today?
Elin: We're gonna talk about shadows. A game mechanic that's much easier to implement. to explain by example than by its definition.
Sam: Mhm.
Elin: But perhaps we should start with a very confusing definition.
Sam: Yeah, why don't I take a crack at this, and then you can correct me when I'm inevitably wrong.
So, my understanding of what Shadows is Imagine I'm just playing a vampire LARP, and I'm my little vampire guy, and I'm running around doing vampire things. There might be some other player of the game, like you, who is playing as my shadow, who is like the little devil or angel on my shoulder, who is whispering lies and ideas and thoughts for my character to have into my ear as I play. And because you are a real additional human being who's kind of following me around other players can hear all that stuff. But the shadows are invisible to other characters. So they're these sort of like almost stagehands running around helping manipulate the fiction as we play.
And maybe that's literally just a stagehand. Maybe the thing that you're doing actually isn't like whispering into my ear. Maybe you're like moving a ghost around like someone who works at a haunted house in America. Maybe you're like really playing a part of my character. Like, we're really, really intertwined in the way we are both playing one character. And there's this huge range in between that might all be referred to as shadows.
But basically like people running around doing things that influence the fiction, but who don't have their own role who are don't themselves exist inside of the fiction.
Elin: Yes or are some sort of different character. Perhaps you are a literal ghost. a ghost that turns on and off the lights and moves the Ouija board around. The point is that There's a person who's playing something that isn't a normal character, but will interact with the players and the environment in some way.
They are the special effects in some way.
Sam: Yeah, totally. So, okay, give me an example from Of Good and Evil, what a shadow has been used for in that campaign.
Elin: If we start at the stagehand sphere of things, then for a horror LARP you want the electricity to suddenly go off. You want the You want candles to blow out, you want the Ouija board to move around, you want them to find the disturbing skull somewhere. And unless you spend awful lot of money and preparation on doing everything with mechanical before the lock, you will need to have a person that go out and turns off the lights or places that thing.
So, on a very basic level, they are just people dressed. Often in some type of outfit that they marks them at shadows not as player a character. If you see the person dressed all in white, ignore them. They are shadows. And you get really good at it. And then they used to stage chance stuff for certain things to work.
On the other end of the things, we had one larp was all about dealing with or in the darkness. And the shadows were, when they approached, your worst self arose. You were the worst version of yourself, and the shadows egged it on. They touched you, they pushed you they whispered into your ear Aren't they all idiots? Shouldn't you punish them? And so on.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned touch in there specifically. And I'm curious sort of how you like negotiate the level of touch that is involved in a mechanic like that. Like, is it just set up ahead of time and you're sort of like telling people this is how it's going to be, if you're uncomfortable with that, let's have a conversation about how that goes? Or like, what's the sort of conversation around negotiating mechanics that require touch?
Elin: All events specify that this is the base level of touch expected. Of any time you can use calibration to signal that you are not comfortable with what's going on. But you will have a base level touch. Which are those that will have an instruction to be intrusive, there will always be some signal to opt out. Perhaps you're just holding out your hand in that no gesture or you're using a safe word or something to de escalate.
Sam: cool.
Elin: But at the horror larp, which I am speaking about, you go there to be uncomfortable. So they will push your limits, but they will do so carefully and be attentive of your signals by doing so.
Sam: Totally. And that actually, kind of brings us into talking about the effects of shadows here, because something I really love about the like, darkest self version of shadows that you were talking about here is how great a tool this feels like it would be for pushing your limits while still giving you final say over your limits, right? Like, someone is there egging you on, encouraging you to be your worst self, offering ideas for how you might be your worst self, but it is it is in the end still, like, up to you, what you do, and like, how far you go, and how you implement things exactly.
And I love that kind of balance of being pushed but always having final say
Elin: Yeah, and it's nice, especially if you've got someone that really knows how to just push you up to the edge. Until you can make the interesting decision. Do I do it? Do I
Sam: Yeah it's fun to live in that space of anticipation in any game
Elin: In Nordic larp we talk a lot about alibi, that you need to be, feel that you're allowed to do something, that you have the permission or have the excuse to do something. A shadow can very effectively give you the alibi to something. I didn't choose to be an asshole. The shadows pushed me to it, so then I get to be a big asshole,
Sam: Yeah, I think alibi is such a smart concept that we could really stand to pull from in RPGs more. I think of it in the context of games that describe themselves as like play to lose games where I think the like default tabletop RPG player Many tabletop RPG players, at least, like, come in with this idea that, like, their character is their precious little guy, like, I want to protect my person and only have the best things happen to them, and that's kind of my job at the table, is to, like, be them, to advocate for them, and to do what's best for them.
And some games that are sort of about getting your characters into trouble and getting fucked up only work when you sort of put a distance between yourself and your character a little bit more and allow your character to go get in trouble. When you start, like, getting joy from taking potshots at your character, right? Of getting them messy and getting them messed up.
And I think that that kind of alibi of, I exactly what you're saying, right? Like, I know this is gonna be a bad thing for my character and I know that like, this might be me being an asshole to other people, but the game is giving me permission to do all that is, yeah, the label of it in Nordic LARP is so great.
Elin: But You see, I have a minor disagreement with that, but, because, if we get back to that I want to protect my character thing,
Sam: Yeah.
Elin: I think that's an instinct that's created by having a competitive mindset and a GM that have tried to punish you, and that's a learned behavior and a learned expectation. If you come in, start playing games collaboratively from the start, you never develop that.
Sam: that's fair.
Elin: So, like, it's maybe about unlearning and learning behaviors,
Sam: Yeah. Yeah,
Elin: that's one of the things of Nordic Larp, it's I think it's less competitive and more collaborative and more communal, so in general, from everything from mechanics to how it's organized, and that depends on lots of cultural and economic factors why it ended up that way.
But yeah, you don't start getting those protective behaviors unless you learn them.
Sam: Yeah,
totally.
Elin: on the other hand, if you've been bullied, life has learned you all sorts of protective behaviors as well, so it's not just a game thing.
Sam: Yeah, like maybe you're pulling that stuff in from your real life or maybe you're pulling that stuff in because that's the default dynamic in a game of Dungeons and Dragons, which is how most people are entering the American tabletop RPG hobby at the very least. I think that's a great point.
Elin: And then if you enter with larp that's also competitive, where your child must make smart decisions, otherwise they are fucked.
Sam: yeah,
Elin: that also learns that behavior.
Sam: totally. Totally. So you've played with shadows. curious to hear as a player have you been in the context where like, you have a darkest self shadow following you around? And if so, like, what is that like and how does that feel?
Elin: It's when the first time you play with shadows you think that this is the most stupid and annoying mechanic ever, at least for the first hour, because you see them and you will react to them and you will be like oh no I'm supposed to ignore you Yeah, yeah,
Sam: yeah, yeah.
Elin: it feels disruptive the first time you do it and Then it quickly gets natural to ignore them, unless you have a great scene with them. So, playing with them you get to really dive into your character. It's someone to start whispering to you to be your darkest self and, Are they not all idiots? Do you not despise them? You are better than them. Why would you help them? And so on. You can answer and have a monologue and express things that your character would not express to other characters and explore parts of your character's mind and behavior you wouldn't otherwise.
And it's also like having a personal cheerleader
Sam: Yeah, totally.
Elin: that's really a place to lift your actions or place to push down your If you want to be crushed into a small, sobbing pile of emotions.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. What a gift it would be to have someone whose, like, whole job is to make your experience better. You know? Like, I mean, that's not, like, exactly what's going on with the Shadow. Like, I'm gonna ask you about playing as a Shadow in a minute. But, like I feel like that feeling of being supported in that way would feel so good and so special.
And that also brings us to what you just said, playing to lift. Which is a concept that I know has, is playing to lift originally a Nordic larp concept? I think it is, right?
Elin: Yeah, so Susanne Vejdemo wrote about the article and popularized the concept.
Sam: Yeah. And so tell me about playing to lift. Like, what is playing to lift? And, maybe use Shadows as an example of how it might function.
Elin: Well, Playing to Lift came as a reaction to the Playing to Lose concept. Yeah.
Because if everyone plays really hard to lose, everyone will end up sitting in their own corner crying, and not much is going on. Playing to lose is still a great concept. Playing to lift is about when you see a person crying in the corner, really going in there and engaging with them.
And it might mean comforting them, or it might making them cry even harder. Or it might be that someone gives the epic speech to really be a good audience and clap your hands. Or let the the person playing a Casanova really seduce you.
Sam: Yeah. even before I read the original Playing to Lift article and kind of learned the formal concept, I feel like I had discovered as a player myself that I had a better time when I went out there and just sat down and tried to identify what is everyone else at this table, in my case, like, trying to do? Like, what do they want to happen in this game? And then, how can I help make that happen in the most interesting way possible? How can I make other people's experience better? How can I be a supporting player for them?
And that seems to be sort of the, the idea of playing to lift of that play. It's playing to lift up other people is unspoken end of the sentence. It's being generous and supportive to others in what they're trying to do. Does that all feel right?
Elin: Yeah, yeah, I think that's how it's meant to be.
Sam: how it's meant to be. Yeah, great. Well, we can keep the lid on that can of worms.
But so shadows in my mind are this whole mechanic that is sort of Inherently playing to lift for someone, right? Like you are in there yourself trying to make other people's experience better, whether that's turning out the lights or whether that's following around one other person, paying attention to what they're doing and then whispering the most horrible thing you can think of into their ear specifically as we play.
And is that right? What is the experience like of playing the lift, and of being a shadow in particular?
Elin: Being a shadow is often about standing around in a way that's not disruptive. Really studying the play, because often you're, you're not just assigned to one player written, you're assigned to a concept or
Sam: Yeah, totally.
Elin: at the Love lab, you might be the one, the shadow to push for love to happen while another shadow will push at someone's self doubt.
Sam: Mm hmm.
Elin: So often you just wait. You are like uh, bird of Pray circling, and then you see your opportunity and you dive in. And it might be something subtle as standing around and perhaps gently taking someone's hand and holding it. Or it might be go up and screaming in someone's ears. Or it might be putting a hand on someone's shoulder and gently guiding them towards something or away from something. Or it might be at the horror of throwing a chair across the room in a great, sudden, slammer.
Sam: Yeah, and I'm, I'm curious what it feels like to you to like be in that role, to be thinking about that kind of bigger picture and thinking about how you can support other people in that way. Like what is the like satisfaction that you get from that? what is that experience like for you?
Elin: For me, partly it's the same as GMing a tabletop game.
Sam: Mm hmm.
Elin: And it's partly the same skill set. Partly it is to be allowed to meddle in everything. And really get into a scene, making it worse. Pouring some gasoline onto the fire.
Sam: Yeah.
Elin: And just making things happen. It's a lot of chaos. Your job is not to have all these feelings and stuff yourself. Your job is to make shit happen.
Sam: Mm hmm.
Elin: And you the alibi to do it.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, I, I love the sort of, shit eating grin that you have on as you describe that. Like, it really does, like, feel like this, this feeling of mischief, almost, that comes with playing the role.
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Elin: Let's talk about the visual effects of shadows. Sometimes you will just have someone dressed all in black or all in white. Perhaps hooded or cloaked. Something that's sets them apart from the rest of the characters. They will be visually distinct, so you know when you see them at the corner of your eye, you're just gonna ignore them.
Sam: Yeah.
Elin: But if you have a shadow that somehow plays a part in fiction, like we had a larp where there were shadows who were ghosts. At first, they walked around pale makeup, generally ghostly look. But as the horror lot became more and more feverish, nightmarish, and so on, these, everyday looking ghosts became more and more disturbingly clown like.
And that's, that's, like, clown noses, and bloods, and their hairs going all crazy, and they start to carry around weird objects, and you're half ignoring them, and half seeing them, and that really sets the mood. Even if you're not directly engaging with them.
Sam: That's incredible. I don't even have anything to say to that, except for that's, that's fucking wild. Um, it's so cool there how that's identifying almost like a, a, it's not quite a side effect, but like the way people are going to have learned the behavior to ignore the shadows and then taking advantage of it. I love the way that that's thinking like two steps ahead to how are people going to be feeling an hour into this
Elin: yeah, at that particular larp where you were supposed to ignore the shadows unless they were explicitly making contact with you. If they spoke to you, you could answer and then your character went into this sort of daydream and other were supposed to ignore that they're having a conversation with the shadow because in character you just see them staring blankly into space,
Sam: Yeah.
Elin: So then you could have these long monologues and discussions with these absurd clown ghosts, and then they let you go and then you didn't quite remember the conversation.
perhaps as a weird memory, but yeah,
Sam: It's almost like making space to do a little, theatrical direct address to the audience in a medium that doesn't have an audience.
Elin: yeah. In Nordic Log, we seldom discuss mechanics, but we talk about meta techniques. And Shadows is a meta technique, because it's on a meta level in some way.
Sam: Yeah. I want to talk a little more about, like, playing as a shadow. You wrote in our outline here that, like, good shadowing takes skill, and that very apparent to me in the same way that good GMing takes skill. But I'm curious to hear you talk about like, why do you think it takes skill and what skill do you think it takes to play as a shadow?
Elin: I think playing as a shadow is all about playing to lift. Mainly lift the players and the scenes, but also if you have a larp with a strong overall theme and storyline your actions as a shadow should lift that storyline as well. And uh, playing to lift means you need to find something to lift. You can't create something out of nothing.
But you need to watch people, you need to see Who are doing great right now and having an awesome sim and don't need any input at all. Or who is just at the moment where a little push or a little thing would make their game so much better. And who's looking like out of character, lost right now where I could really go in and engage as a shadow to bring them into the game or give them some direction or give them some attention like uh, GM would for a player that wasn't as engaged.
Sam: Yeah. It's interesting that think of the GM in a traditional tabletop RPG as being a very heavy role, maybe is a good word for it. Like, they're always present. The GM is just always there and involved in their way. And I feel like Shadows kind of on the opposite end of that. Like, even if they are also kind of keeping a bird's eye view of what's going on and always may be available to step in and, and make an offering, make a contribution, they feel like they're intended to be used with so much more of a light touch than the GM sort of controlling the entire fucking world and like being so omnipresent.
And that feels better to me. Like don't know, I've spent a lot of time in the past decade, like, pushing back against the idea of the GM having so much power, and I love the way that Shadows are much subtler, much smaller, as you were kind of saying, like here to just give someone like a little push to put them over the top. That feels like a really nice way to to not end up with the uncomfortable, sometimes power imbalance of a GM with a ton of power and players with less.
Elin: Yeah, yeah, and as a shadow, a really bad shadow will be pushing you around, interrupting what you have to say rather than inviting something to happen and ruins it.
If you have a pair of lovers that is having a quarrel, and you as a shadow want to do small subtle things, maybe to make them break up, maybe to make them forgive each other. You can, you need to keep it subtle and not ruin the, what's happening, the chemistry between the players. You just need to add to what's happening. Subtly affect the chemistry of what's going on.
Sam: yeah, being a spice on top of the scene instead of trying to bake the whole scene yourself.
Elin: Yeah.
Sam: yeah okay, there was, there's one other thing about shadows that I really wanted to make explicit as we're talking about them, which is that I love the way that they take what would otherwise be subtext and turn it into text, especially in the context of a LARP.
Because in a tabletop game I feel like people are constantly doing the thing of like, okay, my character does this, because they're thinking this. And, then every all the players at the table kind of know what I'm thinking. I can just share that with them, in the third person, out of character. But in character, they don't have to, like, literally go up to someone and reveal this is how I'm feeling right now, in order to get the information out. But when you are LARPing, you don't necessarily have that tool. Like, you're in character the whole time, and so you can't just tell people how you are secretly feeling right now.
And it feels like shadows are this really cool tool to help broadcast that. Even if it's not like me, myself, being the person who's the origin of the feeling that's getting broadcast. Like, it feels really effective and helpful for a shadow to come in and take some of my feelings out of subtext for players and to make them text to sort of like add some transparency to what I'm thinking for other players in the scene.
Does that like, track to you?
Elin: Yeah. And you can explicitly In some way seek out shadows. You see a shadow hoovering nearby and you sort of move closer to them and then you say Oh, my self doubt is terrible right now.
Sam: Yeah,
Elin: you can slide into having a monologue, basically, with the shadow as the other part of your character's thinking.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can like court a shadow and like trigger that thing yourself.
Yeah. Okay. So is there more you have to say about shadows kind of across the board? Like, what else do you want to say about shadows?
Elin: Well, I've seen them used in tabletop play as well.
Sam: Yeah, okay, great. What's an example of that look
Elin: There's a Swedish and French In the RPG, Svart av Kval, Vit av Lust it's a vampire RPG, where someone plays the inner beast of the vampire
Sam: Mm hmm.
Elin: standing up and going between the character that's in focus during the scene and giving it suggestions and commands at the tabletop game. And that's also very effective So even if you're just doing tabletop games using shadows or using the techniques of shadows are perhaps going behind a player and leaning in and whispering things to them as they are having the scene or putting a heavy hand on their shoulder and don't you feel that you're responsible for everything and pushing down on those shoulders a bit.
It's also effective. You can play around with it.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was kind of alluding to this in the last thing I was saying, but I feel like I do see this all the time in the tabletop games that I play, of just sort of Oh, maybe you and another friend of ours are doing a little scene, but at a pause in the scene, I'll just kind of say to you as people outside of the scene, Hey, is the thing that's going on here that like, actually you have a crush on each other or it's like do you feel this way right now?
Just like pitching an idea and then we can talk about that, we can kind of pause the scene and you can be like, no. Or you can pause the scene, you can not pause the scene and just immediately be like, oh, yeah, that rules and then like, get back into it.
But that that collaborative pitching of ideas to each other about each other's characters. I love the way that this mechanizes that I'd love to see more ways to mechanize that. But also it doesn't feel like something that has to be mechanized. It doesn't feel like something you have to have a technique for. It does feel like something you can just sort of do by talking to each other in a tabletop game.
Elin: Yeah. Yeah. In the Nordic scene, shadows have been used for about 25 years, at least. But I think this is a technique that's popped up all over the world, many times, independently. Because we've all seen theater, we've all seen film, we know these tropes. And implementing them in roleplaying medium, it's not hard.
Sam: yeah, yeah, yeah, it's always it's easier like it. Yeah, totally. Any final words here before we kind of call it for the day?
Elin: Well, try it. You can always stop if you don't like it.
Sam: Ellen, thanks so much for being on Dice Exploder.
Elin: Thank you.
Sam: No homework this week, I'm in Minnesota and we've got a snow day. Thanks again to Elin for being here. You can find her on Blue Sky at Elin Dalstal
As always, you can find me on Blue Sky at Dice Exploder or on the Dice Exploder Discord, and you can support the show on Patreon. Patreon, Patreon. My games are at sdunnewold.itch.io our logo was designed by sporgory, our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray. And our ad music is Lily Pads by my boy Travis Tesmer.
And thanks to you for listening. I will see you next time.